_TONY ENGEL: I think it was also sort of a sounding board, primarily because sometimes you come up with goofy ideas while trying to promote the band. It may not be feasible but someone may have an idea on how to make it feasible so right there it's turned into a sounding board. We promote some of the guys that have helped us along the way, -Jeff Augustine with Midwest Swiss has been incredible in terms of merchandising, Sylvia with Wornstar. These are local people and we try to help them out as well. I don't want to say that bands are lazy, but yes, they are (laughs). So we're trying to make it a 'one-stop-shop' and it helps out as sometimes we have shows thrown in our lap where we just can't play for 3 consecutive hours, so it gives us an opportunity to offer an opening spot to another band. One of the things we (Veilside) did a couple of years back and were very guilty of, was doing a lot of shows with the same bands for a couple of reasons. First, we really liked the bands, there was a certain professionalism and camraderie where we knew what to expect. Some of the bands talked a great game but then would show up at a show with 4 people. It was then our name on a contract so it obviously didn't look very good for us. This board then, allows for us to see what else is out there, who is available and who is actually doing things to promote their bands, shows, etc. I don't mind having someone opening for us who only brings in 4 people, if I know it's a show where I'm not pressed on the numbers. For the majority of the clubs, they're all dying on the vine with the economy being what it is and the fact that in this particular market with so many options on any given night, whatever the band brings in, becomes their clientele for the night. There are some clubs that don't ask for that as they have an established regular clientele and the band will simply enhance that, then it's not as big a deal. The bigger clubs are now looking for someone to draw 20 to 30, which unfortunately is some of the headliners now (laughs), which is kinda odd!  We would've never been able to headline a show with 30 people.

HILTON: The other cool thing we're getting with the page is getting more Chicago (city) bands. There is a lot of bands that no one has heard of. That's another reason I wanted to start the page as it would merge city and suburban bands. Maybe trade city shows for suburban shows and vice versa. I've seen a ton of really good city bands because of this...

ENGEL: So I guess it wasn't really altruistic in its shape. It was an avenue for us to help promote, bounce ideas off one another and ultimately we wanted to help Veilside. At the same time, we got a lot of people involved and got to see what they're all doing. Bands are posting their music and we don't have to go all over the place to chase or track someone down like in the old MySpace days. It really has fostered a pretty big community and the network has gotten much bigger.

CHICAGOSROCK: What are your thoughts regarding the current situation between original, cover bands and the promoters who many regard and blame for creating this 'monster'?

ENGEL: I think the problem is short-sightedness on the part of club owners and promoters. The reason I say that is this, most of the cover bands that are playing out there, are playing 60s, 70s, 80s, basically an era that is not current. So the clientele that is going out to see those bands isn't necessarily 20somethings, but 40somethings rather, which in 10 years or so won't be going to too many clubs. Not to say that when they're 50 it's over, but simply that at age 55 or so, you're not going to be at a club every weekend. So these bands will have had a pretty good run, they're some of the best musicians in Chicago. I don't fault them for making money that way, that's what they do. The problem is once these guys go away, which WILL happen because some of these guys are closing in on their 50s if not already, there's nothing to bring the next generation to the clubs because they've done nothing to support the up 'n' comers. So the short term gain on that is that it's safe, effective and they [the clubs] are simply giving people what they want. If cover bands were only drawing 10 people and original bands were the ones happening, it'd be reversed and original bands would rule. So I look at it strictly from a business perspective. The economy has been so bad that the clubs have tightened to their network and you'll see the same bands on rotation. Some bands are really bothered by it, complain about it and sometimes they'll get a chance. But when you look at it from a business perspective and look at a set of nights like 400, 400, 58 & 400 people in my club. You can tell which night was the original band night. So if I know I [as a club owner] make good money with a cover band and lost my shirt with an original band, I'm not going to give that opportunity out much, if any. So a lot of those bands have just folded their arms and are not doing much. The trick is that you'll just have to package things. Everyone wants to play as often as they can, but in our case we just try to spread things the best way we can. It seems we play all of the time, but we actually have a regional breakdown where if we play in Zone 1 for example, we can't do another show in that zone for at least 2 months. If you saturate the area too much or play at the same club too often, you're not really building a fan base. That club's clientele has already seen you and decided whether they like the band or not. The problem with Veilside specifically, is that we know that certain clubs offer a great guarantee and we can get a great payday. When we play in the city for example, we play for maybe 50 bucks and the whole night is a hit-or-miss. So it's a risky proposition from a business perspective, -"...I can play here and make some cash or I can play over there and get some new fans." That's how [I think] bands should pinpoint their business. Because it IS a business. Many musicians hate that term and say "...I just wanna play". Well, if you just "wanna" play, that's fine. Do it in your basement dude, because anytime you try to take the show on the road, it's a business. The cover bands have done a fantastic job. I've seen a number of them and they don't feel a necessity to bring along a band. It's not their job to do that, & I can almost understand why. But from a long-term perspective with the clubs, unless they're only planning on staying in business for a few years, it really hurts them because it's going to move on. It's cyclical.
I do think the original scene is much stronger than when I met you in 2007-8. Back then, there were clubs that bands like ours would never be able to get into. We can play about 60% of those clubs today. We've built up ourselves since then but there's still a number of clubs we can't get in.

HILTON: That's how we got into Shark City. It was thanks to Arra. They heard us at Woodsbash and invited us to play a show with them there. If it wasn't for them, I'm not sure we would've been able to get in there. Drop took us one time as well. We've had a few bands take us out and it's been helpful. That's one thing we'd like to see more of from the cover bands or the more established ones. Take on a new, good original band and give them 30 minutes to play, get some exposure and show what they have to offer.

ENGEL: ...especially with the up 'n' commers. I'm not asking put Veilside on. There was this young band I saw recently, these kids were about 18 years old. I think they were called Down 'N' Dirty. They had this 80s vibe to them and looked like something straight out of a Motley Crue video (laughs). When you see a band like that, give them a chance, an opportunity.  There's actually 2 arguments to this as we were discussing with someone else recently. First, you could just play the smaller clubs (the ones you have to bring your own sound, lights, etc., with a capacity of about 80) until you pack them and then step up to the bigger ones. So, you could do that. The second is that you obviously want to play somewhere with pro lighting and sound where you don't have to hire someone to do that. We're kinda pampered that way and enjoy playing those clubs where we have a good relationship with the sound guy, they know what we sound like and what to expect from us. But we've also worked up to that. The economy has really affected things, but I really think the original scene is on the upswing. I really do.

CHICAGOSROCK: So other than encouraging the more established bands to help out the next generation of bands and fostering that sense of community, what -in your opinion-, can we as a scene do to improve things with our original scene and rid Chicago of that perception of being the Tribute band capital of the world?

ENGEL: I think there's a way but it'll never get done! (laughs). The reason I say that, is that music is a barrel of crabs. It really is. Everyone thinks their band is the best band ever, which is OK to a degree because you need to believe in your own band, otherwise, why do it. You see a band that gets another opportunity and what do other bands say, "man, those guys suck!". They basically slam the others that get an opportunity, -like I said a barrel of crabs. One tries to move up or get out and the others pull them back down. I think bands need to support each other. Go see each other's bands. You don't see that much. We do it and that's the reason why we push that. Writing music is a lot about borrowing ideas and stage production is kinda like that too. I'll give you an example, I think Danny Lynch (from Lynch) is the best frontman in Chicago. He doesn't sing. I've told him this and he laughs about it. He tells stories, and then busts out a melody from time to time. He's a great storyteller. His mannerisms, I've tried to copy some of it because I've seen the reaction he gets from the crowds when he does certain things and thought it could help me not be so rigid in my own performance. Thing is that we can't borrow from each other, when we don't know what each other is doing. Along with Lynch, Loveblast & us Veilside, we have formed the Unholy Triad. We felt that Lynch and Loveblast were 2 of the largest bands on the scene. We know they promote, work hard and are professionals. What we do is that we market together, have a page just for the 3 of us, bounce ideas of each other and try to be efficient on things. Loveblast had these really cool mesh-like banner that they have onstage. It's cool, inexpensive and they gave us the contacts as we're thinking of doing something like that with the hour glass for our stage show.

HILTON: The next one I want to add is Wrecked. I always look forward to playing with those guys. They promote, go to other shows and do a lot of the same things we do. That's what we need. Too many original bands complain that nobody will go see them, but yet I never see a decent ad or an invite for their shows. They never go to anyone's shows either. I have some crazy work hours but I still manage to get out there whenever I can. I put other bands' show invites in my page. We need to help each other out more, especially the original bands.

ENGEL: We do that. We don't mind advertising for other bands because they see that & they'll advertise you. A lot of them do, some don't but you'll have that. Even some cover bands have done that for us. Speed of Sound & Ken Erickson has done that a lot. He's a big supporter, as is Jim Irwin from TNT Chicago (another cover band). He's been to our shows and pimps us online and we've done that for him too. So some do it, the guys in the smaller bands because I think they understand it and get it. The guys in the bigger bands are the ones people complain about but they also didn't just show up at a club being big. Some have been around for 25 years and have spent years building those machines. Nobody was probably helping them when they were starting out so they probably feel they don't need to do that. I/Veilside don't really complain about that. We know what our market is and invite the like-minded bands to our shows. Some come out as they're also trying to build their band. It's really not that altruistic on our part as we want the scene to be succesful because it'll open avenues for Veilside. Bob is probably the most altruistic of us. He'll help anyone (laughs).

CHICAGOSROCK: So we've talked about bands and things that could be implemented to improve the situation. Is there any one thing that clubs can do to help with this? After all, they're part of the equation...

ENGEL: One thing they could do, actually Mario & Paul (owner & manager) at Buzz did this and they were so open minded about this. They asked, what do you think you could draw and what can we do to help? They put an ad and did Jaggermeister specials, -$3 Jagger bombs. A lot of people came out maybe just because it was the cheapest place to drink that night! I know the clubs have to pay bills and such, but I've noticed a lot of cover charges are going up. I know for a fact that bands are not getting more expensive & I'm not saying the clubs are being greedy, but maybe the sound is getting more expensive or something of that nature. I don't know. But with the economy being what it is, the clubs need to keep the cover low. Bands need to be realistic about what they expect in pay. I'd love to play for $1500 or $2000 per night. That's not realistic though. So find out where your pocket is, what you'll accept. Work with the band, bands work with the club. Find out what the band's crowd drinks and do a drink special. Get a sponsor, they do work with beer companies, Jagger & all of that. If clubs want a succesful night, they can't just take a contract from the promoter, throw an ad in the paper and call it a day. Bands promote but many don't do it as hard as they need to. By the time they get out of their day jobs & practice for the show, there isn't enough time to go out to flyer the town, shake hands with people, etc. If the club would do more in that aspect, they would have a bigger 'pop'. Some people may show up that night not really caring who plays & will be there just because it's the cheapest place to drink. If that's the case, that's great because the club just helped the band get fans. Not many clubs, actually, no one other than Buzz has done that, in my experience.

HILTON: I'd like to see the cover stay low. We try to keep it at $5-6. If there's a band I'd really like to see, that's no problem. But times are hard and when you see $10-15, that's tough. Like Tony said, have the clubs have drink specials to attract people. Maybe do draft specials, -$1.50 drafts-, that way you come in pay $5 to come in, and still have at least $5 to drink. Let's work with each other.

ENGEL: I also think that a lot of these club owners are probably pretty cynical at this point. A lot of them have been doing it forever and seen bands that draw and bands that don't do crap from a draw standpoint. The ones that do national acts, will only give that opening opportunity to the bands that draw and bolster the national act's audience and help cover the cost of that artist. In this economy, promotion is pretty important. When we play, it is part of my job to shake hands with everyone in that room. They paid money to see me or someone else on that show....

HILTON: ...so that's what I've been doing wrong? I thought it was do a shot with every person in the room...

ENGEL:  That's why we have to carry you out (laughs)!
I can't stress this enough. The promotional aspect is important in this economy. Clubs will do what they have to do to stay afloat. I want them to stay afloat, because if they close, it'll be one less avenue for Veilside and I don't want that.

CHICAGOSROCK: Going back to the band board page and to wrap this up, do you foresee this becoming something more than a group page, maybe a web or magazine perhaps?

ENGEL: If we get that kind of "bite" on it, yes, definitely. It needs strong participation and a strong sense of community for that to happen though.

HILTON: I'd love that. The band page is going good so far. If we can keep that going and add some more bands. Maybe if we can also get promoters, club owners involved that'd be great too. Get everyone working together and maybe get this off Facebook and on a more independent form.

Click HERE to visit Chicago's Original Band Board on Facebook.